Yes, but I would carry your point further and argue that there is NOT a
clear distinction between improvisational and compositional music. These
are relative terms. All music is simultaneously improvisational and
compositional. The question is where in the music recording and
presentation does the musician, composer, producer, sound engineer, dj,
listener or any combination of the previous categories take liberties with a
musical form, to what degree and in what way! Reinterpretations, remixes,
natural or spontaneous variation in delivery, recreations, cover bands,
playlist departures, etc.. reveal the multidimensionality of this continuum.
When's the last time you heard a freestyle rhyme that wasn't loaded with
cliches?
Expression has a function. Or is it that function has an expression? No, I
didn't mean to say that at all,
a dario
np: Just Ice, "Cold Gettin Dumb"
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Giles [mailto:thomas.giles@st-annes.oxford.ac.uk]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 7:13 PM
>To: acid-jazz@ucsd.edu
>Subject: Re: Jazz V. Disco; the showdown
>
>
>Although I agree with Steve that there is a clear distinction between
>improvisational and compositional music, i'm not sure whether the
>fact that disco producers went to such meticulous trouble to record
>the drum parts separately makes it an instance of the latter
>because of their desire to remove "mistakes". I know re-edits and
>remixes were done of most disco tunes, and it occurs to me that
>due to limitations of technology, being able to take each part,
>including each drum part, in and out of the mix separately is key
>for doing remixes. So perhaps that's another reason why they did
>it... Disco producer's attitudes towards "mistakes" is not all that
>puts them in the compositional category.
>
>laters
>tom
>
>
>On 14 May 2002, at 9:16, Steven Catanzaro wrote:
>
>Send reply to: "Steven Catanzaro" <stevencatanzaro@sprintmail.com>
>From: "Steven Catanzaro" <stevencatanzaro@sprintmail.com>
>To: "ACIDJAZZ" <acid-jazz@ucsd.edu>
>Subject: Jazz V. Disco; the showdown
>Date sent: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:16:40 -0700
>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
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>>
>> Personally, I see a major line that can be applied to most
>> developments = in music for the last 75 or 80 years or so.
>>
>> The demarcation point that I'll stress is *improvisation* vs. =
>> *composition.*=20
>>
>> In improvised music, the structure of the piece, if any, exists only
>> to = support what the performers are going to make up on the spot.
>> This leads = to alot of spontaneity, as well as many "mistakes" being
>> made in the = music, i.e., phrases, rhythms, and harmonies that a
>> person might not = have come up with if they sat down and thought
>> better about it. =20
>>
>> In composed music, all such "mistakes" are ironed out in advance. An =
>> arrangement is thought up, it is rehearsed or perfected until it is =
>> fully realized, and then it is recorded and/or performed.
>> (Alternately, = an idea that is initially improvised is then refined
>> and polished ad = nauseum, until the finished product is released to
>> the public.)=20
>>
>> So, on the one hand, you've got the albums made by Thelonious Monk for
>> = Prestige in the 50's, and they're all sloppy and fabulous.
>>
>> On the other, you've got the disco of the Brothers Johnson, or Donna =
>> Summer, in which, as one AJ contributer notes, each *drum* of the drum
>> = kit was tracked seperately. Now THAT takes planning. Meticulous and
>> = perfect (and fabulous too!)
>>
>> Acid Jazz, or Soul Jazz, is firmly in the first tradition. Much of =
>> disco, pop, album rock, as well as classical music etc. is in the
>> second = tradition, and I would say that a LOT of the music talked
>> about on this = list in the last 4 or 5 years falls firmly in the
>> second tradition.=20
>>
>> After all, the vast majority of it is made by anal males sitting in =
>> front of computers or various other bits of late 20th century =
>> electro-technology created to micromanage audio files. Similarly,
>> you're = not going to hear alot of the first tradition in B. Spears,
>> N.E.R.D., or = the rap of Lil' Kim and etc. (And in fact, the
>> demarcation line in = em-ceeing is whether you can "freestyle" it or
>> not.)
>>
>> But do we say the one tradition is "dead" because the other is a bit =
>> more prominent at the moment? No. The great thing about it is even =
>> though jazz has always been about improvisation, the 2 traditions =
>> co-exist, cross-polinate, and oft-times intermingle.
>>
>> I find myself attracted to artists who are able to blend both =
>> traditions, or at least if they're firmly in tradition 2, they are =
>> creative enough to convey the sense of spontanaeity found in tradition
>> = 1.=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1FB28.0E637FF0
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>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>> <HTML><HEAD>
>> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
>> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
>> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3502.4856" name=3DGENERATOR>
>> <STYLE></STYLE>
>> </HEAD>
>> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Personally, I see a major line =
>> that can be=20 applied to most developments in music for the last 75
>> or 80 years or=20 so.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT
>> face=3DArial size=3D2>The demarcation point that I'll stress = is=20
>> *improvisation* vs. *composition.* </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In improvised music, the structure of
>> = the piece, if=20 any, exists only to support what the performers are
>> going to make up on = the=20 spot. This leads to alot of spontaneity,
>> as well as many "mistakes" = being made=20 in the music, i.e.,
>> phrases, rhythms, and harmonies that a person might = not have=20 come
>> up with if they sat down and thought better about it. =
>> </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In
>> composed music, all such "mistakes" = are ironed=20 out in advance. An
>> arrangement is thought up, it is rehearsed or = perfected until=20 it
>> is fully realized, and then it is recorded and/or performed. =
>> (Alternately, an=20 idea that is initially improvised is then refined
>> and polished ad = nauseum, until=20 the finished product is released
>> to the public.) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
>> size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So, on
>> the one hand, you've got the = albums made by=20 Thelonious Monk for
>> Prestige in the 50's, and they're all sloppy and=20
>> fabulous.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
>> size=3D2>On the other, you've got the disco = of the=20 Brothers
>> Johnson, or Donna Summer, in which, as one AJ contributer = notes,
>> each=20 *drum* of the drum kit was tracked seperately. Now THAT
>> takes = planning.=20 Meticulous and perfect (and fabulous
>> too!)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
>> size=3D2>Acid Jazz, or Soul Jazz, is firmly = in the=20 first
>> tradition. Much of disco, pop, album rock, as well =
>> as=20 classical music etc. is in the second tradition, and I would say
>> that a = LOT of=20 the music talked about on this list in the
>> last 4 or=20 5 years falls firmly in the second tradition.
>> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>After all, the vast majority of it is
>> = made by=20 anal males sitting in front of computers or various
>> other bits of = late 20th=20 century electro-technology created
>> to micromanage audio files. = Similarly,=20 you're not going to hear
>> alot of the first tradition in B. Spears, = N.E.R.D., or=20 the rap of
>> Lil' Kim and etc. (And in fact, the demarcation line in = em-ceeing
>> is=20 whether you can "freestyle" it or not.)</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But do we say the
>> one tradition is = "dead" because=20 the other is a bit more prominent
>> at the moment? No. The great thing = about it is=20 even
>> though jazz has always been about improvisation, the 2 =
>> traditions=20 co-exist, cross-polinate, and oft-times
>> intermingle.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
>> size=3D2>I find myself attracted to artists who = are able to=20 blend
>> both traditions, or at least if they're firmly in tradition 2, = they
>> are=20 creative enough to convey the sense of spontanaeity found in
>> tradition = 1.=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
>>
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